tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post8681096235493538175..comments2024-02-23T03:29:54.261-05:00Comments on The Unreligious Right: "Taser Torture"?UNRRhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17093711439992855042noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-69526622541599537572009-05-06T22:04:00.000-04:002009-05-06T22:04:00.000-04:00> tolerate & in some cases see that as a de...> <I>tolerate & in some cases see that as a deserved part of punishment -- despite the fact that quite a few of those felons are non-violent offenders in for something like drug crimes. It happens on a fairly wide scale. With that in mind, outrage over the treatment of some foreign terrorists doesn't make much sense.</I>On the contrary, it's all wrong when it happens, but the mistreatment and torture of detainees was policy in a way that US prisons are not. You just have that minority of sadists there, or however you want to think about it.<br /><br />Your argument is basically that "unauthorized abuse happens at location A, therefore it does not make sense to worry about it being authorized at location B".<br /><br />That's ridiculous, especially when location B is the much higher stakes international arena.<br /><br />If evidence of a US felon being waterboarded hundreds of times hit the news, we'd be outraged. But it would be seen as a relatively isolated event like Abu Ghraib, and cause much fewer problems for this country than Abu Ghraib did, as well as far more less than the policy of torturing terrorists has. That much is indisputable.<br /><br />Far from making no sense, the decision to focus on the far more significant and avoidable problem (because it was authorized)is an obvious choice.Gherald Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14018224925808657621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-59989101582892391582009-05-06T20:45:00.000-04:002009-05-06T20:45:00.000-04:00Gherald,
"If torture is 'endemic in U.S....Gherald,<br /><br />"If torture is 'endemic in U.S. prisons' then that's an argument for prison reform, incl. military prisons where I'm sure the same or worse abuses happen (see Abu Ghraib)"<br /><br />One of the points brought out in the BBC documentary was that the things which happened at Abu Ghraib were very similar to what goes on in U.S. domestic prisons.<br /><br />"these things happen almost anywhere people have forcible control over others who are deemed inferior. "<br /><br />True, and the guard profession seems to attract at least a minority of sadists.<br /><br />"Just look at all the "pound me in the ass" jokes people make; the public is not terribly outaged by the rape of convicted felons."<br /><br />That's partly the point I'm making. We tolerate & in some cases see that as a deserved part of punishment -- despite the fact that quite a few of those felons are non-violent offenders in for something like drug crimes. It happens on a fairly wide scale. With that in mind, outrage over the treatment of some foreign terrorists doesn't make much sense.<br /><br />"I think the most important prison reform is to reduce the number of people we incarcerate for victimless crimes, so I focus on this."<br /><br />We are on the same page on that. We could also make more use of alternative sentencing and other options for first time offenders and those who don't appear to be serious threats. Save that harsh punishments for those who truly deserve them.UNRRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093711439992855042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-47325014256533084202009-05-06T18:17:00.000-04:002009-05-06T18:17:00.000-04:00PF,
Torture implies the punishment or coersion of...PF,<br /><br />Torture implies the punishment or coersion of someone under your control. If someone is well-enough under control and gets tazed, that may be torture. But if they are trying to e.g. flee a scene or attack someone, then it's not torture to merely stop them.<br /><br />UNRR,<br /><br />If torture is 'endemic in U.S. prisons' then that's an argument for prison reform, incl. military prisons where I'm sure the same or worse abuses happen (see Abu Ghraib)<br /><br />I don't take what reform advocates say as gospel, but I do welcome reform. I just don't know how far the prisons themselves can be improved, because I think these things happen almost anywhere people have forcible control over others who are deemed inferior. Just look at all the "pound me in the ass" jokes people make; the public is not terribly outaged by the rape of convicted felons.<br /><br />I think the most important prison reform is to reduce the number of people we incarcerate for victimless crimes, so I focus on this.Gherald Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14018224925808657621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-70968675158050025192009-05-06T14:52:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:52:00.000-04:00Gherald,
"Torture-as-policy is something else."
...Gherald,<br /><br />"Torture-as-policy is something else."<br /><br />If you believe prison reform advocates, treatement that many would consider torture is endemic in U.S. prisons, as policy. Have you ever seen the BBC documentary "Torture, Inc."?<br /><br />PersonalFailure,<br /><br />I have no problem with the use of tasers in serious situations with adults where the only other realistic alternative is lethal force -- and where that isn't called for. But there have been way too many incidents which in my opinion constitute unnecessary or abusive use.UNRRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093711439992855042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-88375442448216844922009-05-06T14:31:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:31:00.000-04:00Having had a medical test that involves small shoc...Having had a medical test that involves small shocks applied to the body to test nerve conduction (EMG), i can affirmatively state with authority that any use of a taser qualifies as torture. better than a gunshot? sure. humane? no.PersonalFailurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03034292023591747601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-43239703961490892352009-05-06T14:22:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:22:00.000-04:00'pretty much anything' will reveal the usual strea...'pretty much anything' will reveal the usual stream of abuses which exist almost anywhere people have forcible control over others who are deemed inferior (incl. criminal)<br /><br />Torture-as-policy is something else.Gherald Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14018224925808657621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-8754430161766852432009-05-06T13:57:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:57:00.000-04:00Read pretty much anything about the U.S. prison sy...Read pretty much anything about the U.S. prison system.UNRRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17093711439992855042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1138570918413841323.post-59453583141220543222009-05-06T13:53:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:53:00.000-04:00In other news, Breitbart says lefty intimidation i...In other news, Breitbart says lefty intimidation is <A HREF="http://www.ordinary-gentlemen.com/2009/05/hate-crimes-iii/" REL="nofollow">"worse than waterboarding"</A>. Calling something torture doesn't make it so.<br /><br />Opponents of torture stand against it anywhere it happens. A we are particularly worked up about the torture of foreign terrorists is that it was official policy.<br /><br />Find some evidence of domestic officials authorizing torture-memo-like abuses of domestic prisoners or suspects and we will decry it on the same grounds.Gherald Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14018224925808657621noreply@blogger.com