Irrationality and directing infantile abuse at opponents isn't restricted to the left of course, but it is certainly prevalent among liberals -- many of whom are shocked and horrified at the mere thought than anyone would dare disagree with their deeply held assumptions. Anyone who does so must therefore be evil and acting out of evil motives. Tolerance is one of those virtues the left likes to preach about but almost never practices toward opposing views.
I just experienced a personal example. Left-wing blog Library Grape posted some comments about me, which grossly mischaracterized my positions on torture, based on a cherry-picked line or two. So I posted a comment last night clarifying a couple of points. Today there was another response, this time ignoring what I had actually written in the previous comment, and accusing me of denying that the U.S. tortured anyone -- which I have obviously never denied. So I went to write another comment in response, only to find that it was instantly deleted. Apparently I've been banned because I dared answer an attack.
Many on the left cannot tolerate any sort of dissent. Anything that conflicts with their preconceived notions is shut out. This is why it is almost impossible for anyone on the right to comment on left-wing blogs. They simply can't stand to have their cherished beliefs challenged. Even people they attack by name can't be allowed to respond. On right-wing blogs the other commenters will often shout down left-wing perspectives, but most blog hosts will let liberals comment as long as they stay on topic and don't get abusive. That's part of what Paglia observed when she commented on conservatives having more of a sense of fair play.
Wohoo, we got ourselves a junior league blogspat. Sorry to hear your comment was instantly deleted, that's lame if true. But I doubt it as it sounds like a technical issue. I always CTRL+A, CTRL+C before submitting comments so I can paste back and resubmit when it fails.
ReplyDeleteI think you got some pretty big perception and selection biases going on here in your general comments about the left and the right. It's not something I can really explain or help you overcome, you just need to put more effort into being objective.
I don't trust blogspot's comment system, and they often screw up. I always save comments too, especially since I'm long-winded. But when I posted, it said something like "this comment has been deleted by the moderator."
ReplyDelete"I think you got some pretty big perception and selection biases going on here in your general comments about the left and the right. It's not something I can really explain or help you overcome, you just need to put more effort into being objective."
Who doesn't? Although I'm probably more even-handed than many political bloggers -- especially since I have a fairly weird mix of positions. I attack nuts on my own side as well. But yes, I'm obviously biased. Generally anyone who has strong political opinions is going to have built in bias against the other side. But I'll argue with anyone, as long as they construct actual arguments and respond to points.
Ironically, my first thought was "are you high?" :) Gherald's nicer way of putting it is much better. (selection bias is an awesome description!)
ReplyDeleteI've found that this isn't just a left or right issue at all- it's totally based on the person who's written the blog and how they feel. (It's not just politics either- music fans, movie nerds and Disney geeks have been known to delete dissenting opinion too.)
I've certainly experienced my share of deleted comments from right wing blogs (and religious blogs, for that matter). But I can't shotgun the right and say "many on the right cannot tolerate any sort of dissent. Anything that conflicts with their preconceived notions is shut out. This is why it is almost impossible for anyone on the left to comment on right-wing blogs."
Because it's not completely true.
"I've found that this isn't just a left or right issue at all- it's totally based on the person who's written the blog and how they feel. "
ReplyDeleteThat's may be accurate for small blogs like mine, but not for major ones. How many conservatives are there regularly commenting on big left-wing blogs? There are liberal commentors on blogs like Hot Air and Right Wing News. Most big sites are not exactly filled with opposing views, but the urge to ban dissent seems much stronger on the left.
"I've certainly experienced my share of deleted comments from right wing blogs"
I've never had a comment deleted from a right wing blog, let alone been banned -- although I have been called names, etc. But I've been banned from left-wing blogs just for expressing an opinion. And if I'm on a left-wing blog I moderate my comments with the knowledge that no one there agrees with me.
"Because it's not completely true."
I disagree. I think that sort of attitude is far more prevalent on the left. It goes back to the axiom: conservatives think liberals are stupid; liberals think conservatives are evil. A major overgeneralization, but there's an element of truth in it.
spajadigit,
ReplyDeleteThe last paragraph above should start: "I agree, but", instead of "I disagree."
First of all, I didn't post anything about you in my blog post that you reference ( http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/us-military-medical-officers.html ). Gherald came by and mentioned you in a comment responding to my post.
ReplyDeleteAs to the comment you left on my post, it was never deleted -- it is still up under my post right now (see http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/us-military-medical-officers.html#respond ).
I did, however, block you from further commenting. I made a decision a long while back to not provide a forum for trolls and wingnuts. I run a small, personal blog that doesn't make any money and has a great group of intelligent, rational commenters that I've come to know pretty well. I've seen a lot of blogs over the years get bogged down in devil's advocates and wingnut trolls -- only to have the existing commenter community leave as a result. My blog is my house and, in my house, I choose not to engage in rational debate with those who willfully refuse to acknowledge facts or engage in rational debate.
As a postscript to my previous comment, here are the two comments that put you into the wingnut category and why you got banned ( http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/us-military-medical-officers.html#respond ):
ReplyDelete"The U.S. hasn't tortured any soldiers, so you might want to try a better analogy."
"Iran would be well within its rights to torture any CIA operatives it captures."
Anyone is welcome to come by and disagree with me on any matter. However, you prove yourself to be utterly uninterested in facts or rational discourse when you:
(a) assert that the U.S. has not tortured
and
(b) disingenuously claim that you would affirmatively support Iran torturing the brave men and women working for the CIA
As I said before, I choose to not let wingnuts and trolls who engage in commentary such as (a) and (b) pollute the well.
"First of all, I didn't post anything about you in my blog post that you reference ( http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/us-military-medical-officers.html ). Gherald came by and mentioned you in a comment responding to my post."
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have posted there except I noticed the commment when I was checking my referrals. I don't mind having my arguments attacked, but I object to them being misrepresented.
""The U.S. hasn't tortured any soldiers, so you might want to try a better analogy.""
Name one soldier we have tortured under the Bush administration. Whose military was he a part of?
""Iran would be well within its rights to torture any CIA operatives it captures.""
That was in response to a specific assertion about my attitude toward Iran. And yes, I believe covert operatives operating in foreign countries should expect torture in certain cases.
"(a) assert that the U.S. has not tortured"
There you are simply lying, as I have repeatedly stated that I do not deny that the U.S. has tortured. I clearly stated that we did not torture soldiers. The people we torture were terrorists or suspected terrorists.
"(b) disingenuously claim that you would affirmatively support Iran torturing the brave men and women working for the CIA"
There's nothing disingenous about it.
And I wouldn't support Iran torturing CIA operatives because I'm not an Iranian. My point was made from an Iranian perspective. But I guess that's just too difficult for you to understand.
"As I said before, I choose to not let wingnuts and trolls who engage in commentary such as (a) and (b) pollute the well."
Well, you can ban anyone you like. It pretty much confirms exactly what I wrote about left-wingers and their attitude toward people who disagree with their deeply held assumptions.
You can't accept that anyone could possibly honestly hold strong differing views. When challenged your response is to A) mischaracterize their arguments, B) lie C) ban.
"Well, you can ban anyone you like. It pretty much confirms exactly what I wrote about left-wingers and their attitude toward people who disagree with their deeply held assumptions."
ReplyDeleteNope, I have lots of people who disagree with me who comment on the blog. As I mentioned before, I do not, however, entertain trolls and wingnuts who have not interest in rational discourse (e.g. people who assert that it would be OK for Iran to torture CIA agents.)
As an aside, I have never been deleted/banned from a left-wing blog even if I disagree with them from time to time. It could be that looking at my comments over time indicate a consensus with their view, but again, it's anecdotal. Emotionally, I feel conservative blogs are more likely to ban/delete but rationally, I don't have enough data to back it up.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just for the record, there are a lot of conservative posts at some of the major liberal sites. Huffington Post and Crooks and Liars have a fair share. I'd actually posit the reason you might not find as many conservative commenters on liberal blogs is because (and again, this is anecdotal and not necessarily rational) conservatives prefer the echo chamber effect- they tend to go to the places that agree with them.
Just a hypothesis...